Help with new NT compatable server hardware
Please help me, I've spent well over 40 hours trying to figure this out. I think many other small businesses may have similar questions. I own a small business with a small network (wordprocessing/in house office accounting).
Please help me, I've spent well over 40 hours trying to figure this out. I think many other small businesses may have similar questions.
I own a small business with a small network (wordprocessing/in house office accounting). I would really appreciate some advice on upgrading my hardware, that would be nt 4 server compatable. Sorry this is so long, but I guess defining my current system and needs is important. For the impatient, please skip to my target system and Qs at the end of all this.
We currently run a server with 5 workstations. It was assembled in 1997. The basic hardware is as follows:
Server
WIN NT 4.0 SP4 server
-atrend vx chipset motherboard & P 166 processor and 64 k ram
-adaptec 2940u scsi controller
-4.3 quantum Ultra narrow scssi HD
-3com NIC
-seagate 24000n DAT 4GB tape backup with
execview 6.0
-SMC3616tc 12 port hub
workstations
Win 95 OS
-atrend atrend vx motherboards & 133 to 166 processor with 16 to 64 meg ram
We only run wordproccesing, client management, and accounting software (it's fairly complicated accounting with time/billing, ledgers for about 18 bank accounts, finacial statemtns etc). The programs are on the workstations, and shared data files on the server.
I'm about to install a shared cable internet connection through a router.
My problems with the system are these.
1. On the workstations, the 2 or 3 programs are usually open, and they often crash (but only rarely does the win 95 os crash.)
2. The accounting program runs are slow to processing any type of data.
3 The server has rarely if ever crashed. It is on 24/7 for four years. Our data is cricial, as is keeping the system going. If it were to be down for more than a couple hours on a weekday it would be a disastor.
I hate the idea of having to change hardware, then be told it will only run with WIN 2000 or XP OS, and then be told the application programs must be upgraded to run on a new os. I don't need nor want state of the art today, but maybe something that was outstanding 1 or 2 years ago.
I plan to upgrade the workstaions to NT workstation, on a motherboard based on the sis 630 chipset so all is fully integrated (ASUS cusi m or fx), with 128 meg ram, and put in new 10 gig hardrives (the old ones are slowley crashing and only programs and tiny bits of data files reside on the workstations). I understand this is a reliable setup, on which I could one day install WIN 2k pro or xp if I had to.
For the server, I'm having difficulty. The NT compatabilty list at microsoft seems either to only deal with much older hardware, or only tests newer hardware on WIN 2k/XP.
I want reliability, redundancy, and speed knowing it is only word processing/accounting. I would like to be able to change the OS to WIN 2k server or xp down the road. I really want value, and although I can stratch the budget if I had to, I think I can stay in the 1000 - 1500 range. I rather take the money home.
I think I only need a processor of about a P III 700 to 1.0 g. Would ram of 256k - 512.
Can't decide if scsi is neccesary, I understand todays IDE harddrives are faster than my old scsi HD.
Here's what I'm thinking.
I want reliability, redundancy, and speed knowing it is only word processing/accounting. I would like to be able to change the OS to WIN 2k server or xp down the road. I really want value, and although I can stratch the budget if I had to, I think I can stay in the 1000 - 1500 range. I rather take the money home.
I think I only need a processor of about a P III 700 to 1.0 g. Would ram of 256k - 512.
Can't decide if scsi is neccesary, I understand todays IDE harddrives are faster than my old scsi HD.
TARGET SYSTEM: reliable 24/7 with redundancy
Here's what I'm thinking.
BX chipset, on a first class motherboard. ASUS CUBX-E or something.
256 meg SDRAM at 100 hz.
Dual 30-40 gig IDE Harddrives mirrored with a Promise raid ATA 100 card. Maybe go to scsi down the road 3-6 months.
D-link busmaster 10/100 NIC
Use old tape backup system (seagate 24000n DAT 4GB tape backup with execview 6.0)
New 300 watt ATX 19" case
UPS of about 1200w.
Could someone please advise about the following:
1. Will NT 4.0 run on the CUBX-E motherboard. Is there another more modern motherboard (top name board with tons of ongoing support)that NT will run on, that might support PC133 SD RAM without overclocking. I would buy one with even a P IV processor, if I knew that WIN NT would run on it. Than down the road could run WIN 2kxp server. I don't mind spemding an extra 100-200 on the motherboard/CPU combo, if it's NT compatable.
2. what make Hardrives are extremley reliable that will be recognized by NT server.
3 if anyone runs a good reliable server within my needs, please post or email your full configuration for me.
4 I know advertising is not on, but if a dealer wants to advise me here or privatley, thats cool to.
Thankyou to anyone who managed to read this, and could please comment.
I own a small business with a small network (wordprocessing/in house office accounting). I would really appreciate some advice on upgrading my hardware, that would be nt 4 server compatable. Sorry this is so long, but I guess defining my current system and needs is important. For the impatient, please skip to my target system and Qs at the end of all this.
We currently run a server with 5 workstations. It was assembled in 1997. The basic hardware is as follows:
Server
WIN NT 4.0 SP4 server
-atrend vx chipset motherboard & P 166 processor and 64 k ram
-adaptec 2940u scsi controller
-4.3 quantum Ultra narrow scssi HD
-3com NIC
-seagate 24000n DAT 4GB tape backup with
execview 6.0
-SMC3616tc 12 port hub
workstations
Win 95 OS
-atrend atrend vx motherboards & 133 to 166 processor with 16 to 64 meg ram
We only run wordproccesing, client management, and accounting software (it's fairly complicated accounting with time/billing, ledgers for about 18 bank accounts, finacial statemtns etc). The programs are on the workstations, and shared data files on the server.
I'm about to install a shared cable internet connection through a router.
My problems with the system are these.
1. On the workstations, the 2 or 3 programs are usually open, and they often crash (but only rarely does the win 95 os crash.)
2. The accounting program runs are slow to processing any type of data.
3 The server has rarely if ever crashed. It is on 24/7 for four years. Our data is cricial, as is keeping the system going. If it were to be down for more than a couple hours on a weekday it would be a disastor.
I hate the idea of having to change hardware, then be told it will only run with WIN 2000 or XP OS, and then be told the application programs must be upgraded to run on a new os. I don't need nor want state of the art today, but maybe something that was outstanding 1 or 2 years ago.
I plan to upgrade the workstaions to NT workstation, on a motherboard based on the sis 630 chipset so all is fully integrated (ASUS cusi m or fx), with 128 meg ram, and put in new 10 gig hardrives (the old ones are slowley crashing and only programs and tiny bits of data files reside on the workstations). I understand this is a reliable setup, on which I could one day install WIN 2k pro or xp if I had to.
For the server, I'm having difficulty. The NT compatabilty list at microsoft seems either to only deal with much older hardware, or only tests newer hardware on WIN 2k/XP.
I want reliability, redundancy, and speed knowing it is only word processing/accounting. I would like to be able to change the OS to WIN 2k server or xp down the road. I really want value, and although I can stratch the budget if I had to, I think I can stay in the 1000 - 1500 range. I rather take the money home.
I think I only need a processor of about a P III 700 to 1.0 g. Would ram of 256k - 512.
Can't decide if scsi is neccesary, I understand todays IDE harddrives are faster than my old scsi HD.
Here's what I'm thinking.
I want reliability, redundancy, and speed knowing it is only word processing/accounting. I would like to be able to change the OS to WIN 2k server or xp down the road. I really want value, and although I can stratch the budget if I had to, I think I can stay in the 1000 - 1500 range. I rather take the money home.
I think I only need a processor of about a P III 700 to 1.0 g. Would ram of 256k - 512.
Can't decide if scsi is neccesary, I understand todays IDE harddrives are faster than my old scsi HD.
TARGET SYSTEM: reliable 24/7 with redundancy
Here's what I'm thinking.
BX chipset, on a first class motherboard. ASUS CUBX-E or something.
256 meg SDRAM at 100 hz.
Dual 30-40 gig IDE Harddrives mirrored with a Promise raid ATA 100 card. Maybe go to scsi down the road 3-6 months.
D-link busmaster 10/100 NIC
Use old tape backup system (seagate 24000n DAT 4GB tape backup with execview 6.0)
New 300 watt ATX 19" case
UPS of about 1200w.
Could someone please advise about the following:
1. Will NT 4.0 run on the CUBX-E motherboard. Is there another more modern motherboard (top name board with tons of ongoing support)that NT will run on, that might support PC133 SD RAM without overclocking. I would buy one with even a P IV processor, if I knew that WIN NT would run on it. Than down the road could run WIN 2kxp server. I don't mind spemding an extra 100-200 on the motherboard/CPU combo, if it's NT compatable.
2. what make Hardrives are extremley reliable that will be recognized by NT server.
3 if anyone runs a good reliable server within my needs, please post or email your full configuration for me.
4 I know advertising is not on, but if a dealer wants to advise me here or privatley, thats cool to.
Thankyou to anyone who managed to read this, and could please comment.
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i'm probably wrong here, but i would assume that their choice in sticking with intel on a server base platform is due to the fact that the amd platform is still relatively new and probably also the fact that it is limited to 2 cpus whereas a 'mission critical' database usually consists of numerous processors? the point is that amd is not a bad alternative and depending mainly on what your budget is i guess. but if you are just a soho user i think amd would be the way to go.
btw, amd does have 1U rackmount solutions :
http://www.einux.com/AServ1U1200.html
and here is a benchmark comparing AMD to Pentium3 dualies as servers:
http://www.einux.com/A1300SBenchmarks.html
oh yah, and we all remember the supercomputer used by boeing:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2696507,00.html
Quote:Boeing on Wednesday bought a 96-processor supercomputer based on the Linux operating system and Advanced Micro Devices processors for use in designing the new Delta IV rocket that launches satellites into space. i would consider that 'mission critical'
btw, amd does have 1U rackmount solutions :
http://www.einux.com/AServ1U1200.html
and here is a benchmark comparing AMD to Pentium3 dualies as servers:
http://www.einux.com/A1300SBenchmarks.html
oh yah, and we all remember the supercomputer used by boeing:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2696507,00.html
Quote:Boeing on Wednesday bought a 96-processor supercomputer based on the Linux operating system and Advanced Micro Devices processors for use in designing the new Delta IV rocket that launches satellites into space. i would consider that 'mission critical'
I think that the point that I am making is that Intel has built solid technology for a long time, and is very reliable. AMD, on the other hand, has not. They are just getting their act together (which I have repeated) and do not try to sell their regular processors as server class or enterprise class. As for my personal opinion, I wouldn't load MS Money on any of the current AMD platforms, let alone any ERP system or anything that I would (as the thread starter pointed out) classify as "crucial" to my business. Oh, and one more thing, has anybody here run NT 4 Server on any of these chipsets from AMD being mentioned? I have on the ones I brought up (BX, i815, i820, etc), but I haven't seen anyone mention that they are running their accounting databases on it.
As for the 1U system, I wonder who has 10 of those bad boys stacked and running anything major on them. Must be one helluva sauna in that rack.
Speaking of a sauna, it would appear that "overheating" is still a major concern with respect to that custom server being built for Boeing. But, if you will build a completely custom chipset I am sure that they can get it to work just fine. But, as I have stated before, AMD procs are known for heat, and this heat can kill a server over time. I just want to see someone using a 2 way AMD server (I would rather see a 4 or 8 way box, but alas AMD can't seem to do that yet) to its limit for months at a time, and then speak of how durable it is. You don't have to go far to get that kind of information from Intel admins.
Mission Critical servers can (and in my case do) run dual processors at times. I run SQL server 2000 and SMS 2.0 on my admin server, and I will be ordering either another duallie or a 4 way unit for our ERP system (not sure if the Progress DB software scales that well to 4 processors for our application) and the SQL box not only maintains our SMS system, but it also handles our ePolicy orchestrator (McAfee), a couple of website databases, and website logging databases. As I have jobs running almost constantly in one thing or another on this box, it's pretty important for us. No issues, no worries. The 1U server with dual 866 processors runs quite cool, and the only problem I had was one of the 3 power supply fans was generating false failure codes (which the server alerted me to via email). I simply called Compaq and a tech drove out with another power supply and changed it. We have actually had our ERP databases running on a Compaq Proliant 5500R with a 400MHz Xeon in it, and it has worked really well. We are just outgrowing it at the moment, and plan on combining the file sharing of the ERP application with the database and EDI handling of it into one server (hence the possible need for a 4-way unit).
As for the 1U system, I wonder who has 10 of those bad boys stacked and running anything major on them. Must be one helluva sauna in that rack.
Speaking of a sauna, it would appear that "overheating" is still a major concern with respect to that custom server being built for Boeing. But, if you will build a completely custom chipset I am sure that they can get it to work just fine. But, as I have stated before, AMD procs are known for heat, and this heat can kill a server over time. I just want to see someone using a 2 way AMD server (I would rather see a 4 or 8 way box, but alas AMD can't seem to do that yet) to its limit for months at a time, and then speak of how durable it is. You don't have to go far to get that kind of information from Intel admins.
Mission Critical servers can (and in my case do) run dual processors at times. I run SQL server 2000 and SMS 2.0 on my admin server, and I will be ordering either another duallie or a 4 way unit for our ERP system (not sure if the Progress DB software scales that well to 4 processors for our application) and the SQL box not only maintains our SMS system, but it also handles our ePolicy orchestrator (McAfee), a couple of website databases, and website logging databases. As I have jobs running almost constantly in one thing or another on this box, it's pretty important for us. No issues, no worries. The 1U server with dual 866 processors runs quite cool, and the only problem I had was one of the 3 power supply fans was generating false failure codes (which the server alerted me to via email). I simply called Compaq and a tech drove out with another power supply and changed it. We have actually had our ERP databases running on a Compaq Proliant 5500R with a 400MHz Xeon in it, and it has worked really well. We are just outgrowing it at the moment, and plan on combining the file sharing of the ERP application with the database and EDI handling of it into one server (hence the possible need for a 4-way unit).
i know you know more (alot more) about networking and hardware then me clutch, but all i am saying is since he wanted something within the price range of 1500 that amd would be a good solution. as for heat and stacking 10 1U cases, well, I don't think he's needing that much as it would definetly be overkill. the only thing i have run is a ftp server on my tbird and it has never failed me yet. at work for workstations, i build only amd systems since my boss is very budget concious, although he has not been dissapointed in my decisions. as long as you get decent hardware and have a capable guy around to administer it, you shouldn't have any problems.
I understand and appreciate your point, and I do hold out hope for AMD in the future (especially for the nForce chipset that will also power it), I just know that when a person is a solitary admin it's much easier to buy once and then "forget" about the server than to have to deal with simple issues like heat buildup/cycling and component compatibility, let alone server stability. So many of our members here are desktop tweakers and host what they consider to be servers, but are actually PCs running copies of a server OS on them. Many of these people don't even realize the amount of tweaking and adjustment that they perform on a new installation to "bring out the best" of his/her installation, as this is second nature. When setting up a server, searching for drivers and hardware that are compatible with the OS, hardware, and one another is the LAST thing you want to mess with. This is like my love of IBM harddrives; I use them in my personal workstations and wouldn't give them up, but I have had one die on me and another die on a friend while many here have had the same issues. Therefore, even with a RAID setup I still can't really recommend any of their ATA offerings to low-end server builders since they *seem* to have a QC issue at hand. AMD has some kick-a$$ processors, that's for sure. I just don't believe that they are *quite* up for the challenge of production servers yet.
just wanted to add that on this other article from anand, they seem to love dual amd's as a server/workstation platform;)
Quote:If you can't tell by now, we're very impressed with the AMD 760MP chipset. In fact, one of the reasons we spent so long on this comparison is because the outcome of our results would influence what platform we used in our next database server for the AnandTech Forums. The choice is simple; the AMD 760MP is the DP workstation and server platform to have. It's reliable, it's high performing and it's very flexible; everything you'd expect from an Intel based server solution, except that it's from AMD instead.
Three years ago we wouldn't be caught dead recommending an AMD based server solution. Today, we'd be crazy not to do so.
http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showdoc.html?i=1483&p=1
maybe with my yearly bonus coming up, i might go ahead and build one to play with
Quote:If you can't tell by now, we're very impressed with the AMD 760MP chipset. In fact, one of the reasons we spent so long on this comparison is because the outcome of our results would influence what platform we used in our next database server for the AnandTech Forums. The choice is simple; the AMD 760MP is the DP workstation and server platform to have. It's reliable, it's high performing and it's very flexible; everything you'd expect from an Intel based server solution, except that it's from AMD instead.
Three years ago we wouldn't be caught dead recommending an AMD based server solution. Today, we'd be crazy not to do so.
http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showdoc.html?i=1483&p=1
maybe with my yearly bonus coming up, i might go ahead and build one to play with
