Piracy...
I occasionally get on a soap box, and thought that I was overdue Anyway, I don't know how many of the regulars of this board are pirates? 50%, 25%, less, more? But I sometimes get the sneaking suspicion that a lot of people with pirated copies come here for help.
I occasionally get on a soap box, and thought that I was overdue
Anyway, I don't know how many of the "regulars" of this board are pirates? 50%, 25%, less, more? But I sometimes get the sneaking suspicion that a lot of people with pirated copies come here for help. I guess they figure they can find some knowledgeable people, and not have to worry about dealing with MS.
I replied to a dead-giveaway message earlier. He was running a W98 and Win2k Advanced Server dual boot.
Why the heck would you do that? Is there any logical reason whatsoever to run multi-thousand dollar software at home? Did he need fail-over clustering for his Quake3 server? Just so clan "ScrewMS" wouldn't lose their game? Which wouldn't work anyway since Q3 isn't MSCS aware.
Or maybe he *was* legit, and he thought he needed an emergency copy of Windows 98 running on his 8 CPU SQL server. (Yeah, sure)
No pirate could ever need Advanced Server. Secondly, if they are actually a developer and need 2k Sever, then their business can buy it for them (or buy it yourself and take a tax write off; assuming you are in the US).
Is anyone else is as frustrated as I am?
Might I suggest a course of action?
If an obvious pirate posts asking for help, politely tell them that support is not available for users with pirated software. Maybe include simple directions to purchase a legit copy.
If an adult, they can afford to purchase Win2K Pro, if they are younger (i.e. a student) they can still afford to purchase Win2K Pro. JourneyEd ( www.journeyed.com) sells academic priced software, and they have Pro for $120 and Server (complete version, 5 user) for $399.
If this is still too much money, get off the computer and go cut some lawns.
Sorry if my tone is a bit harsh, but I can only take so many messages of "I can't my SB Live working on Win2k Advanced Server!" That, and my firm develops software, so acts of piracy aren't very favorable around here.
</SOAPBOX>
Comments? Suggestions? Criticism?
Anyway, I don't know how many of the "regulars" of this board are pirates? 50%, 25%, less, more? But I sometimes get the sneaking suspicion that a lot of people with pirated copies come here for help. I guess they figure they can find some knowledgeable people, and not have to worry about dealing with MS.
I replied to a dead-giveaway message earlier. He was running a W98 and Win2k Advanced Server dual boot.
Why the heck would you do that? Is there any logical reason whatsoever to run multi-thousand dollar software at home? Did he need fail-over clustering for his Quake3 server? Just so clan "ScrewMS" wouldn't lose their game? Which wouldn't work anyway since Q3 isn't MSCS aware.
Or maybe he *was* legit, and he thought he needed an emergency copy of Windows 98 running on his 8 CPU SQL server. (Yeah, sure)
No pirate could ever need Advanced Server. Secondly, if they are actually a developer and need 2k Sever, then their business can buy it for them (or buy it yourself and take a tax write off; assuming you are in the US).
Is anyone else is as frustrated as I am?
Might I suggest a course of action?
If an obvious pirate posts asking for help, politely tell them that support is not available for users with pirated software. Maybe include simple directions to purchase a legit copy.
If an adult, they can afford to purchase Win2K Pro, if they are younger (i.e. a student) they can still afford to purchase Win2K Pro. JourneyEd ( www.journeyed.com) sells academic priced software, and they have Pro for $120 and Server (complete version, 5 user) for $399.
If this is still too much money, get off the computer and go cut some lawns.
Sorry if my tone is a bit harsh, but I can only take so many messages of "I can't my SB Live working on Win2k Advanced Server!" That, and my firm develops software, so acts of piracy aren't very favorable around here.
</SOAPBOX>
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Responses to this topic
hehe.. I want in on this one...
Is it agreed that the people who did legally obtain their OS software have full paid access to the software company's Tech Support?
Yes?? YEs?? yes...
Then why the f* come here?!?!? You've got a multi-billion dollar support group waiting for you on the other side of the phone, and you end up asking (us) the commoners...
Oh wait, so you did phone them up. so why are you still posting here? cause they couldn't help??? Ah.. i see.. 2G's down the drain.. should have brough that pirated CD that guy offered me on the street for like $20...
If you don't get my point yet, This is a help forum. People want help. Paying for win2k is basically paying for their tech-support. So if you do have a legit copy, why hang around here? Maybe to help other legit owners right?? Save them time from phoning up MS right?
Can someone honestly tell me they offered advice/help on this forum that they obtained via paid microsoft support??? as in, "yeah, i know how to fix THAT problem cause i just phone MS last week about it.."
No right?(at least i hope no, or else my point is sh!t).
so why pay so much for the "useless" tech support??? You end up solving it yourself, or through advice from someone else who solved it themselves..
Hence, pirated w2k or not, we're all the same here. We should treat each other the same.
mr_yellow
Is it agreed that the people who did legally obtain their OS software have full paid access to the software company's Tech Support?
Yes?? YEs?? yes...
Then why the f* come here?!?!? You've got a multi-billion dollar support group waiting for you on the other side of the phone, and you end up asking (us) the commoners...
Oh wait, so you did phone them up. so why are you still posting here? cause they couldn't help??? Ah.. i see.. 2G's down the drain.. should have brough that pirated CD that guy offered me on the street for like $20...
If you don't get my point yet, This is a help forum. People want help. Paying for win2k is basically paying for their tech-support. So if you do have a legit copy, why hang around here? Maybe to help other legit owners right?? Save them time from phoning up MS right?
Can someone honestly tell me they offered advice/help on this forum that they obtained via paid microsoft support??? as in, "yeah, i know how to fix THAT problem cause i just phone MS last week about it.."
No right?(at least i hope no, or else my point is sh!t).
so why pay so much for the "useless" tech support??? You end up solving it yourself, or through advice from someone else who solved it themselves..
Hence, pirated w2k or not, we're all the same here. We should treat each other the same.
mr_yellow
Just a side note:Not related to my above rant.
Yes I have a pirated copy.
Yes I believe pirating is wrong. If you can afford it and it's going to be 'mission critical', then you better pay for it.
Whoa.. that don't make sense.. yep, i'm f'd that way...
Just a funny tidbit:
Guess how i found out about this forum? By PHONING LEGITIMATE TECH SUPPORT(that i paid for and now regret paying for). Funny eh? Just goes to show you how useless they are.
Yes I have a pirated copy.
Yes I believe pirating is wrong. If you can afford it and it's going to be 'mission critical', then you better pay for it.
Whoa.. that don't make sense.. yep, i'm f'd that way...
Just a funny tidbit:
Guess how i found out about this forum? By PHONING LEGITIMATE TECH SUPPORT(that i paid for and now regret paying for). Funny eh? Just goes to show you how useless they are.
Has anyone actually called MS Tech Support for help on their Server Products?
I work with three Windows NT 4.0 Server Rack Mounted Domain Controllers, with over 100 NT 4.0 Workstations, and MS Tech Support in the UK is not what it seems.
First off, you have to pay extra ££££ for Support on NT Server 4.0, and any OEM Versions of NT you have to ring your Hardware Supplier. Not really very good.
If you want to resolve a problem with your O/S, you HAVE to look in Newsgroups, FAQ's and places such as this.
You can always try MS Technet (Which if you want the good stuff you have to pay) etc..
Its little wonder that MS Products do get pirated. Just how much is W2K? Full version. £250 + or upgrade from Win98 £140 + Not the cheapest O/S.
For the record, my copy is not pirated, but received from our Hardware Suppliers at my place of work. The company doesn't want to update to W2K just yet, so they give them out to the Network and System Admins that work there... All two of us.. :->
I work with three Windows NT 4.0 Server Rack Mounted Domain Controllers, with over 100 NT 4.0 Workstations, and MS Tech Support in the UK is not what it seems.
First off, you have to pay extra ££££ for Support on NT Server 4.0, and any OEM Versions of NT you have to ring your Hardware Supplier. Not really very good.
If you want to resolve a problem with your O/S, you HAVE to look in Newsgroups, FAQ's and places such as this.
You can always try MS Technet (Which if you want the good stuff you have to pay) etc..
Its little wonder that MS Products do get pirated. Just how much is W2K? Full version. £250 + or upgrade from Win98 £140 + Not the cheapest O/S.
For the record, my copy is not pirated, but received from our Hardware Suppliers at my place of work. The company doesn't want to update to W2K just yet, so they give them out to the Network and System Admins that work there... All two of us.. :->
My feelings on pirated OS's is . . . . . . I am the guy that the employees that I work for come to for help . . If I don't know the answers to their questions then I don't have a job,
so I have to keep my-self one step above the rest. . By learning the 'NEW" OS then I can say that I am better than the next guy.
The company that I work for is the person who needs to go out and pay 2000.00 of each of their 8 servers and 150.00 for each of their 2000 workstations not me,
and if you think that MS is worried about little old me who is running a cracked beta ( 2195 ) copy of win2k then think again they are worried about companies
who have deployed this OS with out paying the 15,000 dollars for a site agreement, or the guy that is on the corner selling burnt copies as the real things for 120.00.
I spend all day on a MS product, working on their servers and supporting their workstation and when the day comes that MSCE training to get re certified on win2k
from NT4x is free then I'll pay for the OS, until then it is better to keep to my self and keep quiet
so I have to keep my-self one step above the rest. . By learning the 'NEW" OS then I can say that I am better than the next guy.
The company that I work for is the person who needs to go out and pay 2000.00 of each of their 8 servers and 150.00 for each of their 2000 workstations not me,
and if you think that MS is worried about little old me who is running a cracked beta ( 2195 ) copy of win2k then think again they are worried about companies
who have deployed this OS with out paying the 15,000 dollars for a site agreement, or the guy that is on the corner selling burnt copies as the real things for 120.00.
I spend all day on a MS product, working on their servers and supporting their workstation and when the day comes that MSCE training to get re certified on win2k
from NT4x is free then I'll pay for the OS, until then it is better to keep to my self and keep quiet
I purchased my copy of W2K far less than $200.00 and it is not an upgrade. It is however OEM wich simply means MS gives no support what so ever but lets face it what support do you really get .... For the common tweaky out there know more than any level one tech at MS and most level two.. I know been down that road With 95 and 98 and have to reverse engineer an after market SCSI driver to work with both OS. But MS got it right in W2K and they work fantastic.
Hey lets face it I am no MS fan but there OS work better for games than anyone out there hands down. Yes I think $200 is too high for W2K _ell what I paid was too high but the fact is I wanted it, I use it, And you bet my 17 year old son is not going to see his father brake the law by pirating MS or anyone elses software. If you use it pay for it. how would you feel if you had your car for sale in front of your house and someone in the middle of the night broke in and stole it just because you asked to much for it. Far off base you say..... Is it
Regards
Jim
Hey lets face it I am no MS fan but there OS work better for games than anyone out there hands down. Yes I think $200 is too high for W2K _ell what I paid was too high but the fact is I wanted it, I use it, And you bet my 17 year old son is not going to see his father brake the law by pirating MS or anyone elses software. If you use it pay for it. how would you feel if you had your car for sale in front of your house and someone in the middle of the night broke in and stole it just because you asked to much for it. Far off base you say..... Is it
Regards
Jim
That Car analagy is not relevent here. If the car cost less than a few dollars to produce and you had 10's of millions of them and were making billions off the sales of the other cars would you even notice the one car gone? No, you would be more concerned with the guy just over the way selling the stolen cars from you for a lot less and saying they were legit cars from you. Piracy is piracy from the smallest to the biggest, it's all a matter of what you believe and if you give f**k. Do you?
=)
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§E£DZÅR
http://www.win2knews.com
=)
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§E£DZÅR
http://www.win2knews.com
Lets not forget that Win2K "does not cost a few bucks to produce." In fact, the total is near $2 Billion.
MS is projected to sell 25-30 Million copies this year, doing the math, we see that costs MS $80/copy! That doesn't include costs of distribution, replication, marketing done by retailers, end user support, service pack development, development of the next version, etc.
Contrary to popular belief, decent support is available from MS. Check the MS Knowledgebase, probably the most powerful support website available. Furthermore, many new copies of Win2K are purchased with new systems. In these instances, the computer manufacturer (Dell, Gateway, etc) is required to provide support, and generally they do a pretty good job.
I am still amazed how many people would never steal a candy bar, but wouldn't give software piracy a second thought. It seems a bit hypocrital doesn't it?
My upgrade cost $95 after rebate, I don't understand why that is too expensive (it was a full retail copy from Buy.com). Some people pay more than that for shoes, and they only use the pair for a year at most. NT 4 was around for >3 years. If we assume that Win2K is around for the same period, the cost per day is roughly 10 cents.
[This message has been edited by DrSchmoe (edited 03 March 2000).]
MS is projected to sell 25-30 Million copies this year, doing the math, we see that costs MS $80/copy! That doesn't include costs of distribution, replication, marketing done by retailers, end user support, service pack development, development of the next version, etc.
Contrary to popular belief, decent support is available from MS. Check the MS Knowledgebase, probably the most powerful support website available. Furthermore, many new copies of Win2K are purchased with new systems. In these instances, the computer manufacturer (Dell, Gateway, etc) is required to provide support, and generally they do a pretty good job.
I am still amazed how many people would never steal a candy bar, but wouldn't give software piracy a second thought. It seems a bit hypocrital doesn't it?
My upgrade cost $95 after rebate, I don't understand why that is too expensive (it was a full retail copy from Buy.com). Some people pay more than that for shoes, and they only use the pair for a year at most. NT 4 was around for >3 years. If we assume that Win2K is around for the same period, the cost per day is roughly 10 cents.
[This message has been edited by DrSchmoe (edited 03 March 2000).]
You are confusing retail prices with wholesale prices. Just because "Computer Store X" is charging $199 for the upgrade, doesn't mean they are paying that much. In fact, the retailers buy the software from MS for around $120. If MS's cost was $80 per disc, they are making a 33% profit, which is very low for the software industry (typically nearer 75%). The other versions of Windows (server, advanced, etc) help bring this percentage up, but the effect is negligible since their sales volumes are low.
Take a $250 Toshiba DVD player for example. Best Buy (or other stores) pay around $95 for the player. Yet, after marketing, staff, distribution, taxes, display, promotions, etc, they only make around 10-15%.
A $1000 set of Bose speakers costs your local retailer roughly $275.
Quake III, which you can buy for $50 at CompUSA, goes for $10-15 (depending on quantity) on the wholesale market.
Does this mean we should rip of Bose and id since they are obviously exploiting us?
Take a $250 Toshiba DVD player for example. Best Buy (or other stores) pay around $95 for the player. Yet, after marketing, staff, distribution, taxes, display, promotions, etc, they only make around 10-15%.
A $1000 set of Bose speakers costs your local retailer roughly $275.
Quake III, which you can buy for $50 at CompUSA, goes for $10-15 (depending on quantity) on the wholesale market.
Does this mean we should rip of Bose and id since they are obviously exploiting us?
Against all my better instincts, I'm adding to this thread.
Firstly. How is this topic hardware related? This thread belongs in the 'Other' forum.
Secondly. As much I agree with (or see the point of) most of the posts in this thread, we need to be careful. Let's say there's a rich young man with money to burn and not an ounce of sense in his head. He goes to a store to buy the best operating system he can. A salesman (smiling shark-like at his luck) sells him Win2k Adv. Server. The rich rube heads home and with the help of several impatient and more technology-aware friends gets it installed as a dual boot with his existing operating system (Win 98), because his friend's tell him (rolling their eyes) that the new operating system might not run all his applications and games. Eventually, tired of answering his incessant questions, they point him here for advice and consultation. Once he gets here, does he tell us his entire history? No. Does he tell us that he really doesn't know what's going on? No. Do we have anyway whatsoever to differentiate him from a pirate? No we do not.
Now that's a pretty far-fetched scenario, but not impossible. My point is that we have no right to sit in judgement of the members of this board. We simply don't have all the information we need to accurately assess the situation.
To actively point out to anyone that they are undeserving of help because we suspect them of piracy would make us guilty of hubris, not to mention be rude and exclusionary.
If you suspect someone of piracy, then don't reply to their message. Plain and simple. Otherwise we'll end up with a witch hunt on our hands and that always ends in the destruction of at least one innocent.
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*gniltrohc yawa srednaw*
Firstly. How is this topic hardware related? This thread belongs in the 'Other' forum.
Secondly. As much I agree with (or see the point of) most of the posts in this thread, we need to be careful. Let's say there's a rich young man with money to burn and not an ounce of sense in his head. He goes to a store to buy the best operating system he can. A salesman (smiling shark-like at his luck) sells him Win2k Adv. Server. The rich rube heads home and with the help of several impatient and more technology-aware friends gets it installed as a dual boot with his existing operating system (Win 98), because his friend's tell him (rolling their eyes) that the new operating system might not run all his applications and games. Eventually, tired of answering his incessant questions, they point him here for advice and consultation. Once he gets here, does he tell us his entire history? No. Does he tell us that he really doesn't know what's going on? No. Do we have anyway whatsoever to differentiate him from a pirate? No we do not.
Now that's a pretty far-fetched scenario, but not impossible. My point is that we have no right to sit in judgement of the members of this board. We simply don't have all the information we need to accurately assess the situation.
To actively point out to anyone that they are undeserving of help because we suspect them of piracy would make us guilty of hubris, not to mention be rude and exclusionary.
If you suspect someone of piracy, then don't reply to their message. Plain and simple. Otherwise we'll end up with a witch hunt on our hands and that always ends in the destruction of at least one innocent.
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*gniltrohc yawa srednaw*
Who is sitting in judgement?
I am just doing my best to incite a guilt-trip Besides, it is an interesting topic, and people have a lot of unique viewpoints. I never really expected this many though.
There seems to be four camps:
1.) The "I don't cares." Just here for support, could care less, etc.
2.) The "piracy is bad" camp, although they seem to be somewhat non-vocal.
3.) Those justifying their decision to copy.
4.) Those who feel piracy is OK.
I am not sure if I understand SHS's message. I think he was trying to say that a sale ruins my stats?
Well, software can be sold as a loss-leader. Many retailers have been selling Q3 at a loss, just to get customers in the door.
Thank heavens it is Friday!!!!
I am just doing my best to incite a guilt-trip Besides, it is an interesting topic, and people have a lot of unique viewpoints. I never really expected this many though.
There seems to be four camps:
1.) The "I don't cares." Just here for support, could care less, etc.
2.) The "piracy is bad" camp, although they seem to be somewhat non-vocal.
3.) Those justifying their decision to copy.
4.) Those who feel piracy is OK.
I am not sure if I understand SHS's message. I think he was trying to say that a sale ruins my stats?
Well, software can be sold as a loss-leader. Many retailers have been selling Q3 at a loss, just to get customers in the door.
Thank heavens it is Friday!!!!
My 2 cents on the subject since somebody did bring up the far east. There are people over there who can never afford the high prices of MS software, so it is pirated. Most of them (99%) are happy to pay the $5-10 for a copy. Ever been to Sim Lim Square in Singapore? Man, what a place! I should have picked up more that just a few games while I was there. But, these places are geared towards those who can't afford the software. Even in America, with the house and gas prices going higher than ever, you have to start cutting corners somewhere. Most of you who do, I could care less if you are doing it. You just might have good reasons. One could be a guy who just loves computers, but is fanacially burdened by a house payment, a large number of children on a single income and bills up the yin-yang. I do know that feeling very well (except I just have one child).
PS, got my copy by the MCSE certs, just the 120-day versions though
[This message has been edited by Tim Bazzinett (edited 04 March 2000).]
PS, got my copy by the MCSE certs, just the 120-day versions though
[This message has been edited by Tim Bazzinett (edited 04 March 2000).]
Just my two cents.....
Some time ago I've seen the price of the MS Office Pro 97 sold in Quebec (something around 500 US$)
Guess how much we were paying for the very same version here in France? (except for the spell checking and grammar tools that are a little bit different) : 1000 US$!!!!
make your own conclusions about this, but I think we're cashcows... If this does not legitimate a bit piracy.... then tell me what does.
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-=[Reed]=-
MSI-6167, Athlon-600 @850 , 320 Mb PC100 SDRAM
AHA-2940 U2W, IBM HDs x2(18Go U2W 7200rpm), Plextor Combo (PX32TSi, PX412R)
Xentor32, IIyama 19", SBLive!1024
Alcatel 1000 DSL modem, generic Realtec 8029 NIC
MS Win2K French Final retail and MS WinNT4.0
[This message has been edited by Arkos Reed (edited 04 March 2000).]
Some time ago I've seen the price of the MS Office Pro 97 sold in Quebec (something around 500 US$)
Guess how much we were paying for the very same version here in France? (except for the spell checking and grammar tools that are a little bit different) : 1000 US$!!!!
make your own conclusions about this, but I think we're cashcows... If this does not legitimate a bit piracy.... then tell me what does.
------------------
-=[Reed]=-
MSI-6167, Athlon-600 @850 , 320 Mb PC100 SDRAM
AHA-2940 U2W, IBM HDs x2(18Go U2W 7200rpm), Plextor Combo (PX32TSi, PX412R)
Xentor32, IIyama 19", SBLive!1024
Alcatel 1000 DSL modem, generic Realtec 8029 NIC
MS Win2K French Final retail and MS WinNT4.0
[This message has been edited by Arkos Reed (edited 04 March 2000).]
Ya know what? I'll be perfectly legit. My copies are NOT legit.
None of my OS's are legit, and I have 95, 98SE(both of these with legit manuals and keys, but the cd was burned because what I got came with my ****ing compaq), NT4 WKS and SErver, and Win2K prof and Adv. Ser.
hte only one I use is Win2kProf.
And believe me, I'm seriously wanting to get a legit copy--I love this and it's well worth my money.
But, we get copies of software with our college, and licenses for it
I don't have Win2K licensed personally, but hte college does, which is hwere I got the copy.
I come here so I can find things to tweak my windows with.
I know the system well enough that I am tech support for all the users around me...
It's just nice to see what's going on around with other people's systems.
my 2 cents.
None of my OS's are legit, and I have 95, 98SE(both of these with legit manuals and keys, but the cd was burned because what I got came with my ****ing compaq), NT4 WKS and SErver, and Win2K prof and Adv. Ser.
hte only one I use is Win2kProf.
And believe me, I'm seriously wanting to get a legit copy--I love this and it's well worth my money.
But, we get copies of software with our college, and licenses for it
I don't have Win2K licensed personally, but hte college does, which is hwere I got the copy.
I come here so I can find things to tweak my windows with.
I know the system well enough that I am tech support for all the users around me...
It's just nice to see what's going on around with other people's systems.
my 2 cents.
for the record---I hate my parents' standard keyboard. Give me my Logitech wireless ergo any day
pardon the typos.
pardon the typos.
Hey,
lets remember why we use computers, for information and communication, however you do it, those items are legit in life. And I will not down some-one and say you cant afford ....... you cant have it, this industry has grown due to the ability of the masses to use it, wether it is legit or not.
If you are worried about who has a "real" copy and who doesn't, then you are too blinded......turn that focus inward.
My 2 rubels
Ned
lets remember why we use computers, for information and communication, however you do it, those items are legit in life. And I will not down some-one and say you cant afford ....... you cant have it, this industry has grown due to the ability of the masses to use it, wether it is legit or not.
If you are worried about who has a "real" copy and who doesn't, then you are too blinded......turn that focus inward.
My 2 rubels
Ned
first off : SHS would you be so kind as to clarify your posts? im sure they`re interesting points =) if youre more comfortable in german i`d be glad to translate.
second : this is a tech msg board not a moral paper..go to church or something
and i thankfully repudiate all your pointing moral fingers..i try and help ppl and need help myself sometimes, lets let it stay at that
second : this is a tech msg board not a moral paper..go to church or something
and i thankfully repudiate all your pointing moral fingers..i try and help ppl and need help myself sometimes, lets let it stay at that
